Bittersweet night

[UIIIU]

Well ive been on a bit of a dry spell and i really have not been getting anytime to play lately because of school but i had nothing to do today so i played a couple MTT's.

First entered two $5 guarentees on ap and busted out of both of them within 2 hrs. So I started a $6 4k guarenteed tourny after those two at either 11 or 12 i think and had a thousand entrants and ended up on the final table at about 4am and busted in 4th on a race right after i had to fold off about half my chips, altho if i made the call i would have been out so I guess it was a good fold.

here were the two big hands that did not exactly go my way


Stage #2049091699 Tourney ID 4978281 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 12,000 - 2009-12-11 04:07:05 (ET)
Table: 66 (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 1 - QSIGHT1 (273,496 in chips)
Seat 2 - UIIIU (189,270 in chips)
Seat 5 - JBIRD6803 (225,490 in chips)
Seat 6 - BURROHUNTER (149,946 in chips)
Seat 7 - DAISUKEE (80,602 in chips)
Seat 9 - UNTAMED2 (627,696 in chips)
QSIGHT1 - Ante 1,200
UIIIU - Ante 1,200
JBIRD6803 - Ante 1,200
BURROHUNTER - Ante 1,200
DAISUKEE - Ante 1,200
UNTAMED2 - Ante 1,200
QSIGHT1 - Posts small blind 6,000
UIIIU - Posts big blind 12,000
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to UIIIU [Js Jh]
JBIRD6803 - Raises 36,000 to 36,000
BURROHUNTER - Folds
DAISUKEE - Folds
UNTAMED2 - Folds
QSIGHT1 - Calls 30,000
UIIIU - Calls 24,000
*** FLOP *** [7s 10h 6s]
QSIGHT1 - Bets 12,000
UIIIU - Raises 60,000 to 60,000
JBIRD6803 - All-In(Raise) 188,290 to 188,290
QSIGHT1 - Calls 176,290
UIIIU - Folds
*** TURN *** [7s 10h 6s] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [7s 10h 6s Ad] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
QSIGHT1 - Shows [Ah 10c] (Two Pair, aces and tens)
JBIRD6803 - Shows [Jd Jc] (One pair, jacks)
QSIGHT1 Collects 551,780 from main pot
QSIGHT1 Collects Bounty Prize of $1

Then here have been playin pretty tight and with my short stack was hoping just to take it down but got in a race which severely crippled me


Stage #2049097202 Tourney ID 4978281 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 14,000 - 2009-12-11 04:14:38 (ET)
Table: 66 (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 1 - QSIGHT1 (676,386 in chips)
Seat 2 - UIIIU (122,070 in chips)
Seat 6 - BURROHUNTER (100,746 in chips)
Seat 9 - UNTAMED2 (647,298 in chips)
QSIGHT1 - Ante 1,400
UIIIU - Ante 1,400
BURROHUNTER - Ante 1,400
UNTAMED2 - Ante 1,400
UNTAMED2 - Posts small blind 7,000
QSIGHT1 - Posts big blind 14,000
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to UIIIU [6s 6h]
UIIIU - All-In(Raise) 120,670 to 120,670
BURROHUNTER - All-In 99,346
UNTAMED2 - Folds
QSIGHT1 - Folds
UIIIU - returned (21,324) : not called
*** FLOP *** [Jc 7h 5d]
*** TURN *** [Jc 7h 5d] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 7h 5d 9d] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
UIIIU - Shows [6s 6h] (Two Pair, jacks and sixes)
BURROHUNTER - Shows [Kd Ad] (Flush, ace high)
BURROHUNTER Collects 225,292 from main pot

made a little come back after that but than my busto hand came

Stage #2049097908 Tourney ID 4978281 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit 14,000 - 2009-12-11 04:15:41 (ET)
Table: 66 (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - QSIGHT1 (652,586 in chips)
Seat 2 - UIIIU (52,448 in chips)
Seat 6 - BURROHUNTER (223,892 in chips)
Seat 9 - UNTAMED2 (617,574 in chips)
QSIGHT1 - Ante 1,400
UIIIU - Ante 1,400
BURROHUNTER - Ante 1,400
UNTAMED2 - Ante 1,400
UIIIU - Posts small blind 7,000
BURROHUNTER - Posts big blind 14,000
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to UIIIU [8s 8h]
UNTAMED2 - Folds
QSIGHT1 - Raises 28,000 to 28,000
UIIIU - All-In(Raise) 44,048 to 51,048
BURROHUNTER - Raises 172,744 to 186,744
QSIGHT1 - Calls 158,744
*** FLOP *** [Jh 5c Qc]
BURROHUNTER - All-In 35,748
QSIGHT1 - Calls 35,748
*** TURN *** [Jh 5c Qc] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 5c Qc 3c] [10s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
QSIGHT1 - Shows [Ad Jd] (One pair, jacks)
UIIIU - Shows [8s 8h] (One pair, eights)
BURROHUNTER - Shows [Kh Ks] (One pair, kings)
BURROHUNTER Collects 342,888 from side pot-1
BURROHUNTER Collects 158,744 from main pot
BURROHUNTER Collects Bounty Prize of $1

I also played a 15k guarenteed super deep stack on FTP it was 10 bux. There were 2700 ppl in it and I busted out in 28th

So overall I did make some money about $400 but still very dissapointed in how things went late in these tournies because there was potential for so much more.

[UIIIU]

ya a push there would have definitely been the better play thinking back on it but the guy was by far the tightest at the table and i didnt want to see myself dominated with a push there

[SolidSnakeLogic101]

Flat shoving 66 with 122k with 14k blinds is not really a good play.......You're 8.7BB almost even with the other player.

By shoving 66 only hands that have you dominated and/or in a coin flip situation are gonna call you. The strength in smaller pocket pairs is in post flop strategy on weak and untextured boards. Essentially by shoving against a non-pp you are allowing hands that have a 27% chance of hitting the flop to have a much greater chance of hitting a card on the turn or river. By 3 betting the flop the big stack will more than likely just call knowing that you are committed in calling an all in. When you shove the flop (Texture Bearing) you allow a window to fold post-flop on boards where you are more than likely drawing to a 2 outer. You also allow a hand that has not hit the 3 cards to make a fold for 50k..which with his hand, and you're supposed table image there are good odds he would have since he was drawing to a 2% Turn River Flush, with Overs post-flop.

Other than that it does look like you took some beats, but if you made $400 you can really complain....that's more than most people are making a week in this bad economy. Just stay patient and keep playing volumes and you shouldn't have a problem in getting some bigger cashes in the future.

[UIIIU]

that is true in almost all cases i will be getting called either in a coin flip or dominated but 4 way with blinds at 7 and 14k the play is gonna take down the blinds the majority of the time. Id say atleast 50% of the time you will collect the blinds and the other 50% youll have coin flip or dominated. so 50% of the time ill increase my stack by 20% with no risk when blinds folded and would say around 15% of the time im dominated which is not enough to justify limping, folding, or min raising there. Just the way i see it, if theres one time not to play passive its late in mtts. Now early in the tourny no way in hell i make this play but with chip equity so dam high late in tournies its worth the play at the blinds. Now i was about even with the guy in 3rd place but 1st and second had over 600k and i needed to make a play becuz really wasnt shooting for a 3rd place always have to go for the win thats where the real money is at

[SolidSnakeLogic101]

What do you think the comparative odds are that everyone folds around to a 3bet? I mean I feel if someone is going to call a 3 bet late in most MTT they will probably call a large percentage of the time to a 6 bet. Often a flat shove tells me a player is weak, and I will call with a wider range. Especially if the player is short stacked. Im not trying to say it was a bad play, hell I might do it.

As far as conversation goes though, how I think you could have played the hand better is to potentially attempted to play a post flop pot. Though he was short stacked, and very well could have just re shoved the 3bet with AK. At that point in time you're pretty much committed to call unless he has folded every hand you have seen him get. You're never getting around this situation preflop, he's calling everytime. But lets just say that 10% of the time he would fold his AK post flop after having nothing....it still increases you're chances of making it to a 1st slot.

I agree the top spots pay the best. But in this situation you were 5:1 stack size both 1st and 2nd. Even with 3rd. So you would double to around 250k, with a stack at 600k, 450k, and 120k. Still need another double or so to be a contender for 1st. If you 3bet and he calls and folds, or folds preflop (Less risk/Less Reward) You're sitting with around 200k, and frankly still in contention in this tournament if you can get another big hand.


IMO...I would feel you are about 30% to take down the pot preflop. This is due to the fact that you are 1st to act. So no player has yet to make an action, a player is low and is willing to get it in, and two stacks are 5:1 to call on chip ratio.

Now I would say that at least 25% of the time you will be out drawn, and 25% you will in. Another 15% of the time you will be drawing to 2 outs. 5% you will either be beaten by the board, or it will be a split pot.

So IMO you're gonna win about 55% of the time.

If you three bet there instead of shove. I feel you could potentially increase you're win ratio by another 10%....I know its not much, but in this situation it shows why playing lower pocket pairs post flop is key. Essentially you are playing the fact as long as they don't have pp, they will not hit the flop 63% of the time. More than likely they will fold. Not to mention that you get the added value from the fold equity pre-flop.

By no means do I think this was a bad play, like I said...getting low in a tournament like this I might do something like this....but now since I have contemplated you're hand history...I feel I have learned something about playing small pocket pairs post flop late in MTT structures.

[UIIIU]

you make a good argument but i have 0 interest in playing that hand post flop utg late in the tourny, im only hittin trips around 1 in 9 times and on pretty much all the other flops im gonna have no idea where i stand if lets say i did 3 bet him and in the unlikely situation where he simply just calls the 3 bet. So now post flop im gonna have over half my stack commited so a C bet would be retarded on my part and if i check he will be able to buy the pot a decent amount of time 8.5bb I feel really is not enough chips to be making that play. If i had around 3 or 4 hundred k than yes i would 100% agree with the play suggested but for this situation its tough for me to believe that is the most profitable play. Love the input tho been trying to get this sort of discussion thing going. Going over hands is just as important as the game itself