Live Play, Massive Tip

[dsteele02]

The live OFC hammered this home. Of the 8 players at my table 5-6 looked at their hole cards out of turn.

This may seem harmless but you subconsciously do things. You'll lean forward or backward or place a card protector over them or reach for chips or glance at your chip stack or exhale deeply, ect ect ect ect.

So now you have someone like me that is playing the player not the cards. I'm on the button and was likely to raise until you put a protector down on your cards, or pick up a stack of chips, or start counting down your stack.

The point is, it is EXTREMELY hard to control every movement of your body for an extended period of time, and by looking at your cards ahead of time you're changing the way the table would have normally played the hand. So instead of me trying to steal your blinds you get a walk, and walk away with nothing for your AA.

Take your time. Watch the players, you'll see the ones like me. When it's my turn to act I'm watching everyone behind me before I even look at my cards.

If you have a player or two doing this then you're going to cost yourself a significant amount of chips by looking at your hole cards out of turn.

It's next to impossible to hide all of your tells But by waiting to look at your cards you've gotten people to put chips in the middle before those tells even become evident.

Long story short. Wait your turn. Don't touch your cards, don't touch your chips. Just take your time, be patient, and watch those acting in front of you. Even if you don't pick up tells on them you won't be GIVING tells to them.

[ythelongface]

Excellent post Daniel I agree with what you have to say here completely.. Soooo many people dont even think about stuff like this when they are playing. Over time, I have learned to become for lack of a better way to say it, "Chris Ferguson like" in my mannerisms. I always try to observer my tablemates, never touch my cards till its my turn to act, and do my best to remain still as I can at all times. Nothing is foolproof though, and no matter what you do, your gonna give away a little( or a lot) of something. Just because you folded your hand, doesnt mean you should go into chill mode.. try to get in the habit of acting exactly the same whether you have cards or not. Anything you can do will ultimatley help you be just a bit harder to read, to get a handle on.

[UIIIU]

this is true but there are a lot bigger physical aspects or habits that u can pick up on that i feel give you more of a +EV. First off when someone takes a quick glance at there chips after the flop comes down. Now youll miss this glance almost every time if your watching the flop instead of the player. Very crucial for heads up pots, for me its one of the most natural tells of poker when it is genuine and done when your opponent does not think he is being observed. Id say 90% of the time I have seen it and the opponent showed it was a very strong hand and i have to assume the majority of mucked hands were pretty strong too just by the given frequency of the strong hands showed. This is prolly my favorite tell, but a close second for me is eye contact, this is not nearly as accurate but definitely has its trend.

This one i got out of Caro's book of tells, I think i mentioned it before but it is truely a great book. This should help when your on the fence about an opponents hand but it shouldnt be relied on solely to win the hand. First off lets say your opponent makes a sizable bet on the river he has played the hand questionably but you are really 50/50 on whether you can call the hand. If I observe my opponent looking around not making any eye contact or threatening moves I will often fold. In general if he wanted a call thats the sort of thing you would expect non threatening contact with the eyes and i would say a lil something about the body language with the eyes but ill keep it on the eyes for now. So for a general tell on split decision i feel this will definitely give you value one way or the other, but with this tell unlike the glance many times ppl will act the direct opposite. Now on the other side of it if you notice someone starts to make eye contact but does not hold it for long the majority of the time you will see a bluff or just a weak hand that your opponent is not confident in. now tricky players will do almost the opposite of what is said here they will stare ya down with the nuts and look and have there eyes wonder when they have shit but luckily tricky players are not near the majority of players.

Last but not least crossed arms at the table after a bet with newer players id say strength but with experienced players who the hell knows so unless u can easily pick out the noob i wouldnt rely on it too much

[dsteele02]

Originally Posted by UIIIU

this is true but there are a lot bigger physical aspects or habits that u can pick up on that i feel give you more of a +EV. First off when someone takes a quick glance at there chips after the flop comes down. Now youll miss this glance almost every time if your watching the flop instead of the player. Very crucial for heads up pots, for me its one of the most natural tells of poker when it is genuine and done when your opponent does not think he is being observed. Id say 90% of the time I have seen it and the opponent showed it was a very strong hand and i have to assume the majority of mucked hands were pretty strong too just by the given frequency of the strong hands showed. This is prolly my favorite tell, but a close second for me is eye contact, this is not nearly as accurate but definitely has its trend.

This one i got out of Caro's book of tells, I think i mentioned it before but it is truely a great book. This should help when your on the fence about an opponents hand but it shouldnt be relied on solely to win the hand. First off lets say your opponent makes a sizable bet on the river he has played the hand questionably but you are really 50/50 on whether you can call the hand. If I observe my opponent looking around not making any eye contact or threatening moves I will often fold. In general if he wanted a call thats the sort of thing you would expect non threatening contact with the eyes and i would say a lil something about the body language with the eyes but ill keep it on the eyes for now. So for a general tell on split decision i feel this will definitely give you value one way or the other, but with this tell unlike the glance many times ppl will act the direct opposite. Now on the other side of it if you notice someone starts to make eye contact but does not hold it for long the majority of the time you will see a bluff or just a weak hand that your opponent is not confident in. now tricky players will do almost the opposite of what is said here they will stare ya down with the nuts and look and have there eyes wonder when they have shit but luckily tricky players are not near the majority of players.

Last but not least crossed arms at the table after a bet with newer players id say strength but with experienced players who the hell knows so unless u can easily pick out the noob i wouldnt rely on it too much

Great response and Caro's book is an awesome read. I was mainly addressing OFC players and not giving away tells as opposed to actually picking up tells.

But UIIIU is right, if you're looking to pick up tells it needs to be done in that split second when they see the flop or their hole cards.

[alby_00]

I loved Car's tells book. Navarro's is excellent too. Caro's new book is a leak filler..very good advice from a legend.

When I play live Idon't wait my turn. On purpose.

Let me explain... I am looking for tells all the time when my oppents are looking at their hole cards.. It is just amazing how much you pick up at that critical time. I concentrate on pepe on my left. This very often lets me play a hand in late middle like it is the button. If I see the people to act behind me look disinterested then I will make a middle position move that can be called a donk move without the info I am armed with.

Most of these tells come from peps who look at their cards out of turn..almost all if you want to know the truth. The peps who wait for their turn are ussually giving off alot less tells, because they are the disiplined players as a rule.

I will watch for watchers... Someone really watching for tells can be quite obvious. If I have a watcher or 2 I will try to give false tells... look at my chips if i have a weak hand... sigh and lean back with KK...

I find it is best to do this by peeking before your turn because the tells are more believable..

If I am at a really tough game I may go into robot mode and wait for my turn and make same move and pauses for every situation, But the truth of it is most live games I get into are incredibly soft with 1 or 2 decent players. So in these games I try to decieve the good players because the donks will take care of themselves. By giving a false tell to the watchers I may be able to trap him and then just me and a table full of donks. Therefore greatly increasimg my tourney EV.

I agree you are better off waiting for your turn, UNLESS you have a reason to play outside the bubble. Never be predictable..

I did read a book (which 1 I don't remember..Gordon's maybe) that said not to wait for your turn because then everyones focus is on you and you may give tells to too many eyes.. I don't put much belief in that though because as I said earlier the 1's who wait for their turn are ussually disiplined enoigh to not give away alot.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[daytona0]

alby,

If you sigh and lean back with KK against ME, then you sure as hell won't get paid off.


1. Sighing would likely be concealed when a weak hand is held. Suppose you had 72o on the KQJT3 board and you bluff... if you sigh you 'show weakness' so you don't do it, even if you want to, you don't. Or better yet you miss your draw and fire a final bullet - sighing doesn't accomplish anything and most likely your frozen with nervousness and don't even subconsciously manage to sigh.

2. Leaning back indicates that you are relaxed. Why would you be relaxed on a bluff?


The ONLY way you'd get paid off by ME in such a hand is if you were known to throw fake tells into the mix (and i had a strong(er) hand) but generally i'll give the first time up.



I just go into live games and play my game. I'm deliberately slow in all my actions which adds a sense of uncertainty at the table. If i'm betting, i wait until the action is on me to do ANYTHING physical. Anyone else's tells just come about and generally you don't need tells... betting patterns etc are good enough

[JamesDaBear]

It's not bad advice at all. There are players who are bad at concealing tells and/or picking up on others... lots of online players fall into this category. If observant players are picking up on this at all, I would advise them to look at their cards as soon as they get them or at some point before it was their turn. Don't make yourself an obvious target against observant players... which you are when you wait until the action is on you. I haven't really done this much myself, but I have seen this advice before.

[AceBluff1]

Sorry, but I think this is over rated. If you watch the pro they don't wait there turn. Maybe when there at a tv table they do it more often. Caro book is good but it is outdated. It's easy to give false tells.
players that are bad will give tells if they wait there turn or not. You can still tell even if you look at your cards out of turn.

[kardmania]

Initial observation on a player.

Player shoves all in. His hand visibly shaking.

Is he strong or weak?

[jsawe]

Typically he's strong but inexperienced player who hasn't taken the time to learn to mask obvious tells. This play will most likely placed one or more hands over his cards after better. His torso moved slightly forward and his legs shifted in under the table.